Retro Sass Mutation
Retro Sass Mutation
Ep. 34 - From Prehistoric Practices to Present-Day Polarization
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This episode examines the connecting threads between the documentaries Unknown: Cave of Bones and The Insurrectionist Next Door. Join us as Ozzie and Kristian discuss how prehistoric practices inform our understanding of the causes of our nation's present-day polarization.
Introducing Unknown: Cave of Bones and The Insurrectionist Next Door
KristianWelcome to the Retro Sass Mutation podcast , an exuberantly reckless audio experience where hosts Ozzie Kristian Markus and are tasked to compare and discuss two randomly chosen topics from a roiling cauldron stewing with the severed remains of all things life , culture and mass media . And this is an exciting episode because , after a long absence , ozzy , as we turn to Grace , is genius and doing this upon us all , audience members . Ozzy , it's an absolute pleasure that you're back . How do you feel ? Are you ready ? Do you feel you've kind of digested over these , what has been almost a year ?
OzzieYou know what ? There are no words to express how I feel , so I'm just going to perform this dance that . I'm so just please watch . Sorry , you guys can't see this . It's going to be spectacular .
KristianYeah , I mean , we're in a really extravagant location . You know , there's like brittle leaves on the ground .
OzzieI'm going to go full .
KristianKevin Bacon and there's asbestos on the ceiling , just kind of like , finally descending in its porous form , descending upon us , you know , maybe 20 years or get lung cancer , okay , so you know , you know we're good , don't worry about that .
OzzieI don't know .
KristianI don't know , I mean we'll find out in 20 years . I mean , you know , by then we'll be old anyway . So could be , you know , cause for a expeditious euthanasia . But we're getting dark now .
OzzieThis is why I've been gone for so long .
KristianThis is my welcome , oh my .
OzzieGod , my goodness .
KristianOkay . So in today's episode we are going to be comparing and discussing two documentaries which have been out for a while now but I think , deserve an extended discussion . As I was doing my review , a few people , there's been a few articles written about both , but nothing where there was a really deep discussion about these topics and I think there's so much to mind here .
KristianFirst one is Unknown Cave of Bones directed by Mark Manucci , which focuses and this is according to the New York Times review on a recent expedition into a South African cave that contains skeletal remains of the ancient human relative , homo Naledi . The archaeologists finding led them to conclude that the Naledi , who may have existed as far back and this blows my mind 335,000 years ago , ritualistically buried their dead , among other things which we'll discuss , which was previously unheard of for such an ancient species , and , of course , the Insurrection Next Door by filmmaker Insurrectionist next door by filmmaker Alexandra Pelosi , and this does that name sound familiar ?
KristianYes , it's from . She is what the sister of the daughter of Nancy Pelosi , daughter of Nancy Pelosi , and she interviewed the former or a group of individuals who participated during the January 6th Insurrection and just to kind of you know it's quite a cross section of humanity .
KristianIt is a cross section of humanity and she just kind of wanted to have a discussion with them to kind of learn more about what made them be there and how they feel about it currently . And she was it and she carried these interviews as they were in the process of serving time , or maybe coming out of time , I think some are already served , others were about to serve Some people they guess she got from the beginning to the end .
OzzieOther people she got towards the end , right , but yeah .
KristianYeah , so , as is our ritual with our structure , remember , we go , we share our first blush or first reactions to each , a quote that stood out from each , why it matters , how they connect and , if we have time , the three words that pulls everything together . So , ozzy , I'm curious . Let's start with unknown Cape of Bones , and what was your first blush ?
OzzieYou know what I was so excited about this ? Because you always are clued into these types of documentaries . I think you were the one who turned me on to my octopus teacher .
OzzieThat was so good and you were so emotional about that and I thought I was watching this . I thought I cannot wait to hear about what you know just absolutely , I'm sure , gripped you . There was a lot for me that I thought was interesting . I'm always fascinated by all things anthropological and some ideas that I started to play with my head was you know ? We talked about the connection of human evolution .
KristianRight .
OzzieAnd there's always thinking of that , the missing link , and there was kind of a feeling that these Nellettis might be a sort of missing link , because they have the jaw structure that is not really human , and neither is the nose , but in a much smaller brain .
KristianYes .
OzzieBut they still belong to our genus .
KristianThey did and even despite the small size of the brain I'm glad you pointed it out the fact that they were able to demonstrate this behavior , burying their dead .
OzzieYeah , and tool usage .
KristianYeah , so look , there's a few spoiler alerts if you haven't seen this video . The key findings among these anthropologists and archaeologists is that A that they bury their dead , yes . B that there is evidence suggesting that they use tools , and also that they marked the surface of the cave . So like an early form of writing again remember this is photography .
OzzieWhat would they call it ?
KristianYeah , pictography . I believe I could be wrong on this , but again , this is 335,000 years , which is dates farther back than anyone had ever assumed , so that's just fascinating . But first of all , what really stood out to me is the lengths they went to actually bury their dead , and that's what some of their initial hesitation was to accept this , because it's first of all . You go into this cave right . It's called the cave of wonders . Cave . No , there's a different name the rising star cave .
OzzieThat's what it was .
KristianThe rising star cave and a paleontologist Lee Berger , yeah , his archaeological work who really kind of explored this , this cave . And it's crazy because you kind of first you walk in , it's this big chamber , but then there's like this really narrow , steep descent into another walkway and then another passageway , and first of all , like they , to get to this , to get down this steep , I guess channel , they had to use all this modern ropes and you know , climbing equipment . But the Nadelli , you know , did it themselves and imagine , they're much smarter .
OzzieSmaller to me , they were smaller and they're more .
KristianLimbs are a little more spindly , yeah I agree , they had a different gate . They said different gate , so to me it's not difficult to imagine that they were able to move down , because they're more sure , so difficult .
KristianBut it's still , I mean , it's a journey , it's similar to like a pilgrimage , right ? So in traditional religious belief systems , each religious belief system , has a type of pilgrimage activity , which sometimes involves some hardships or some ordeal or some challenge or some you know kind of gathering around some occasion in celebration of whatever it is that they believe in . So you can make the argument and this wasn't really touched on in that coming up , but when there's almost felt like a very processional type of activity in that the Nadelli had to obviously work together to the Naledi had to work together to to cancel that the Naledi people are going to come together and write a campaign campaign .
KristianThat's right , it's .
OzzieI've already look at X right now .
KristianYeah .
OzzieThe ladies are trending .
KristianOkay , so out of respect to their unknown pronouns , the Naledi , so the Naledi had to work together to kind of bring down their deceased brethren . And then , you know , take it to another chamber and bury it , and then there's also evidence of like firewood and food . So they would , you know , they definitely spent time there to kind of and they put the tool in the kids hand . They put the tool in the kids hand , which was just mind-blowing , so almost like this thought of the afterlife that , seems , is what it seems to suggest , like hey .
OzzieI don't know about that . I thought that they missed some opportunity to say , well , it could be , this was his favorite tool . It could be the way we get into the afterlife is or you know you're going to have to protect yourself , or it could be like we are kind of artistic beings and we want to give you this for the next canvas that you go to .
KristianAll right , I like that the idea is , or maybe it was .
OzzieThis was your favorite thing , and we want you to be with your favorite thing , who knows , as there's also conjecture at this point . What is interesting to consider , though , is For them to have such an intentional practice suggests some belief system .
KristianRight , yes .
OzzieAnd to think brains on that minuscule level that are supposedly far less evolved than ours , based on our understanding of how a massive grade matter and cerebellum is going to be in higher level thinking . For them to already have that embedded into their practices suggests that maybe there is a sort of faith or belief or God idea built into our brains .
KristianThat's a great point and it is mentioned . The video , like you know , it seems like when you go , you look at every culture at any time period , whether it's ancient to modern day . Every culture has a belief in some sort of deity or afterlife , even if it for those cultures there's more animalistic . What is it ? There's a term , the animalistic , where they believe that the objects and or animate .
OzzieAnimate it , yeah .
KristianAnimate , like they have some kind of energy or spirit suggests that . So the fact that , yeah , like great point that it goes back this far is interesting . Like why is it that we all living species , at least that's connected to homo sapiens or lead up to homo sapiens , seems to carry this type of in there ? Yeah , although I want to say one thing about the brains , like I always hear this , like oh , large brain , small brain , but I also think it's density . So even though they had a smaller brain , arguably it could be said that maybe they had a denser brain , maybe they had more connections they made more use of what they did have and of course there is something to be the clear later sign that I'm going to point to that size matters .
OzzieYeah , come on . Your wife just jumped in .
KristianNo , my phone is ringing , she said it matters .
OzzieBut , it doesn't happen to every guy and it is a big deal .
KristianIt is a big deal , but it's also , you know , whew man boy , I'm glad I don't have that problem . I just couldn't imagine . But anyway , so I'm thinking about . So , first blush , okay , my three words . I'm going to turn it to you , oh wow , already feeling Is validated .
Kristianvalidated in the sense that I have always felt that the origins of human evolution goes way back and there's no way that we were the only ones who exhibited complex behavior . And fascinating because I think this I mean what's suggested as we've been talking about is amazing , but also kind of sad in the sense that , you know , there's all these species that predates us that had complex behavior that we'll probably never even know about .
OzzieSo Nadelli Naledi is I'm going to fire , I'm just going to stop talking .
KristianOzzie , please first blush .
OzzieNo , no , keep going .
KristianBut no , it was kind of sad in the sense that you know how many other species that you know goes back 50 , 100 , 200 , 300 , a million years that had complex behavior . I probably had beautiful , intricate lives and communities and ways of interacting . And the meanings that they imparted to their day to day lives We'll never know and it's just gone .
OzzieIs this like an ancient alien type of take ? You have what are ? You talking about , like you think there's , complex humans . It's like 300,000 , 400,000 , a million years ago .
KristianI wouldn't say I mean okay , so not complex to the extent that we are complex , right , but but wildly , who knows ? I mean that's the okay . That brings up all the topic you know for the longest time . I mean science . Recent science continues to show , like the octopus document you mentioned earlier , that animals that we have so easily dismissed as being rudimentary , or oh , they're just robots or they just operate solely on instinct do have complex behavior In terms of crows , who supposedly have a language , they use tools .
KristianElephants , who mourn their dead you know dolphins Rays that sing yes and who have dialects depending on regional dialects , and they come together and they forge these like kind of very community specific songs . So okay , but yeah , who knows what kinds of complex behavior there were are indeed in the past , dating back hundreds of thousands of years .
OzzieYeah , I thought you meant more like on the societal level , like they were building structures and then there was a mass extinction .
KristianI think we're getting conspiratorial .
OzzieOkay , I see , I haven't seen you in a long time . I didn't know if you've gone . Some rabbit holes .
KristianI mean , you was on my list lately , you know , I mean that's you know I'm thinking of going up to Canada . So you know that's in the cards .
OzzieWhy ? What are you going up there for ?
KristianI guess this is one crazy lady who she seems to be like the queen of Canada and she's like , yeah , she has a lot of things . You didn't hear about this . Oh my God , that's a discussion from the other day . But yeah , I know this lady who is calls herself this queen of Canada and has this like small cult , like following , and they like occupied some remote town in Canada and like the surrounding people were just like freaking out about it , trying to get rid of her .
KristianYeah , so , this was like recently , dog , what you've been doing .
OzzieLiving my life . I don't know .
KristianYeah , this is terrible Okay .
OzzieI'm gonna have to look that up next episode .
KristianOkay , so let's go back . I mean so , does that satisfy your first blush ? Do you want to transition to why it matters ?
OzzieYou know ? Something else I just want to touch on , though with that is I don't know that I'll ever experience the same level of high that that one character who said he's been watching this for eight and a half years and then finally he went down the shaft and he went into that place and he looked up and the wonderment of it for him Like how few people could ever feel anything as strongly as a man who has committed his life to a singular experience and then he gets to do it and it gets to be on tape and he can revisit it . You know , I was just so happy for him , but I was also thinking about how rare that experience must be and I thought they captured that really well .
KristianNo , that's a great point , that's a great point I make nothing but great points . Let's go Okay
Constructing Society
Kristian. So I want to build on that because I think that speaks to the fact that our current economic , societal , civilizational systems , you know , put us in kind of our more regiment , force us all into a regiment , into kind of scripted patterns and service of whoever and it doesn't allow for as many opportunities as that where you get obsessed over an idea or you set yourself to a task of your own choosing and you create almost like your own personal adventure and journey .
KristianAnd you know , we all end up in these nine to five jobs and some are cool , some are interesting or others are more bland and monotonous , but he is someone . I think this is the Lee Berger I believe I could run .
OzzieLovely .
KristianAnd he , yeah , he is . He found a passion and his whole life was dedicated in the service of this quest for discovery and he seems like he had definitely more agency to fulfill his own desires and wonder like to , you know , to exact or to manifest that wonder in a way that many of us actually don't have . That chance , I don't know . So how do you feel ? Do you feel ? Do you have ? Are you pursuing your own wonder ?
OzzieAre you in a position , there's few things that I can dedicate myself to like that . I'm kind of a generalist to begin with you know Right , right , I just think that the generalist gets to connect with many yes , and that's my benefit of being that way Whereas the deep diver has that greater , you know , depth of experience . I don't think when he was sitting there looking up at the ceiling of it and blown away .
OzzieI was like I've seen the Sistine Chapel . When my daughter was born , I exploded with emotion and I imagine that's the closest thing that I'll ever have . You know , but my daughter wasn't Like . The creation of her was new . It wasn't planned in the same way . This guy's life was dedicated to one idea you know he slept thinking about it . He dreamed about it . Probably it's like , probably what it's like to be an astronaut when you were a kid , dreaming of being an astronaut .
OzzieAnd then you finally up in space and you're like yo what is it ?
KristianThat's like a true fulfillment of a dream and the journey they took to get there Although you know , I consider myself a generalist as well , and I think there's opportunities for that moment of wonderment .
OzzieNo , there isn't , You're wrong .
KristianWell , I think the advantages of being a generalist Okay . So the disadvantage , obviously , of the generalist , like you said , is you don't really deep dive into the one particular thing , right ? When you think of academia , a lot of professors like they will dedicate their entire lives to this one thing , at the exclusion of almost everything else . But as a generalist I think we get a nice broad overview of all the wonderful phenomenon events and ideas , Not all , but a lot .
OzzieI mean a lot .
KristianYeah , correct , it would be interesting to say . But we do it at a more shallower level . But at least we get a bigger picture and from that we can have our own unique perspective of things . But that's always a struggle , right it's ? You're either a generalist or a specialist , and it's hard to find that balance between the two . It's kind of an either or type of thing .
OzzieThere's a CS Lewis short story called Looking a Beam in a Tool Shed . That's a great one . It's about looking at versus looking along . Looking at the little beam that cracks through the tool shed , you see it as a little speck of light and it's fairly insignificant and you can break it down scientifically and that's like the way we look at the world . When we think of people trying to do dances to create rain and we all know obviously you can't do that . So there is some argument for the sort of movement that creates in the ground from that . Well , anyway , that's beyond my understanding right now . But we look at that and we think there's no connection , generally speaking , from the scientific approach . The same way we look at when somebody falls in love . We say actually what that is is a production of oxytocin and etc .
OzzieBut looking along is putting your eye to the whole of the crack in the beam and seeing all the way from that light to the sun , and you're encapsulated by it and that's the feeling of being in love , that's the feeling of being a part of a community where you do ritualistic practices that you believe wholeheartedly will manifest a certain collective desire , and those are really potent experiences . Somebody who is just diagnosing it ?
Ozziemisses out on . They don't look like fools to the outsiders , but they don't feel like love or community the way somebody on the inside does , which I think transitions well to what the insurrectionist next door is about Immediately , I understood that Pelosi was choosing people and filming them in a way that is going to , maybe through her own bias of wanting to humanize them create a more sympathetic character and my heart went out to so many of these characters . I'm glad you said that .
KristianBe careful with your scarf , it's a beautiful bow .
OzzieOh , thank you .
KristianI'm absolutely in awe and amored of it , but it's kind of brushing up on the mic . You're a good man .
OzzieThank you for watching that , but a lot of these people just you know , when they first happened we had a podcast around it and we both were kind of sympathetic to them too , because we thought , like in some cases , as is projected in the movie , the documentary , a lot of these people seemed a little gullible , to put it , you know , euphemistically .
OzzieIn other cases logic wasn't dictating behavior , it was more of I belong to a community and that feels so good , and American life is so alienating and isolated that to just belong was enough to get them to do things that they regret or that they're doubling down on . But in all of these cases , you know , you see them and you go . I have some sort of sympathy for them .
KristianYeah , that was one of my key words I put down for my first blush , which is , in a sense , heart broken , also frustrated . Upset because and I think this is what the documentary do Also Pelosi , she I felt she was a little I didn't like her tone at the very , very beginning because I felt like she was almost confrontational or condescending a little little condescending but it seemed like she had relationships with them , though , and I think that's why she was so comfortable she wasn't seeing them one time and make an interview .
KristianThere was multiple over the duration of the pocket or the documentary . She , her tone did shift where she was more sympathetic . So I did see that shift in her but like initially , like the first 10 minutes I was kind of like why are you being so condescending ? But she definitely that tone in that change . But yeah , I feel that a lot of these people were clearly the victims of being misled . But also it's because there's there's some real , partial truths that inspire this kind of descent into the type of maybe delusions a strong word , but they're not evil people , they're not . They're disenchantment and fan frustration and doubt of the establishment . Quote unquote is justified because clearly we're living in a system that has not served the needs of all , all , all its people underneath it , and so a lot of these people were . I mean , there were some who were successful . There's others who seemed a little down now , like the wrestler , like the failed wrestler , and I think the guy who gives himself this classroom shots , who just wanted to have a family Right .
OzzieAnd he , he breaks my heart . This is a guy who . This is where I got mad . I thought I thought this is where you were going . There are charlatans who know that they are lying to these people who are otherwise would be .
KristianYou know , wonderful neighbors in some cases , and , and you know the you know capers call them normies , useful idiots in the sense .
OzzieOh yeah , but I'm talking about , like Fox News and OAN , and the politicians like Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz , who are smart enough because they went to the Ivy League schools that they were To know the impact that they're making and to still do it Like there is .
OzzieThere is a real anger and disgust that I have for people who willingly manipulate Otherwise people who could , you know , be really productive members of society if we just structured it in a way that was more pro-social . But instead we want to animate the sense of entitlement and you know a lot of a lot of the people who watch Fox News feel angry because something that they expected isn't the way . But if they take like they've done studies on this where they take somebody and they not pay them to watch CNN for a month instead of Fox News , so many of their emotional , the anger and the oldest things that that they're manifesting dies down . They have to have better mental health and their views on things change , it's like , but then they go back to it because there's something about it that's really satisfying , because it says we're a team and we have a common enemy and together we're going to finally come overcome .
KristianAnd beautifully said . And these people are the ones who ended up serving time , who had disruptions in their lives loss of careers , broken relationship but the people behind them that were kind of indirectly encouraging them to do what they did . Manipulating them or , you know , mostly got off scot-free or are you being aimless or faceless ?
Kristianor they control things through them . But they're kind of far removed from the , from the direct consequences that these people faced for doing the things that they did . And I think that's where more time I wish was spent in terms of all this discussion around the January 6th , like , okay , clearly , people who broke in and assaulted officers and caused , you know , destroyed , you know government property should be held to account . But what about the people who fomented their , their just delirium and their and brought them to rage to do the things that they did ? Like are they being held accountable ? And sure , trump is . Obviously there's a lot of legal action being taken against him on this , but there's so many other enablers around him that , I mean , are they are we ? Has that net been cast wide enough to get all these people right ? And I'm thinking of , like the Roger Stones , the Alex Jones is , to a certain extent , the Steve Bannon's and you know , the Mark Meadows , even you know former Speaker McCarthy right , they all have a hand in it .
KristianAnd even the citizen , many of the politicians who are still serving , who are continuing to perpetuate this lie of the stolen election .
Fragmented Media and Polarization
KristianBut again here's the thing stolen election . Here's the partial truth . You know George Carlin had this great speech on Bill Marne when he's talking about . Our sense of freedom is an illusion . The people that we are are that are presented before us in terms of like hey , choose this person or that person to be elected leader , like that's kind of handpicked already , like it's not . Like you know , he brings to question like do we really have choice ? And the people that we want to choose . You know , we're in the city , we're living in the city .
KristianThis is just how it is , and you know this is just makes things spicier . It's okay . We've got the porous asbestos , we've got the cockroaches , we've got the burrow leaves , we've got the echo of the garage , and this we're fighting . This is , you know , when we're millionaires off our podcast in 10 years we'll think back to this moment , this moment of the disrepair that currently surrounds us .
OzzieOkay , why it matters .
KristianThis is a quote that I chose to share for the insurrectionist next door , which is and Alexander Pelosi said this these are American citizens who took misdemeanors and became the people who will be voting in the next election .
KristianWe need to talk to them , we need to listen to them , we need to have a conversation , because we talked about how divided the country is and we want to try and heal .
KristianAnd I'm going to connect to my point that I wanted to make about why it matters , which is , you know , currently this environment of unchecked partisan politics and deepening social divisions inevitably lead to an escalation of violence , and I really would like to avoid that .
KristianAnd I appreciate this documentary in the sense that you could , you saw the growth in her and that she really did make an effort to have to portray these people as not just these kind of two dimensional , simplistic , you know , rapid maga supporters , but rather , hey , you know , these people ended up bleeding and doing what they did because of , because of reasons that were either they were manufactured or was was something they felt they had to turn to because of the desperation or the frustration that was already going on in their lives as a result of the type of system that they were living in or the types of conditions and circumstances that brought them to this level of frustration . So , and there's more to be to discuss on that point and to explore on that point , I don't think even her documentary went as deep as it could have . But I think , unless we have those conversations , things are just going to continue on this path of just partisanship , which I don't think is going to end well for anyone .
OzzieI hear that I hear what you're saying .
OzzieYeah , that makes sense my concern with it is do you feel there is effort that needs to be increased in terms of humanizing the other side ? Because there's a part of me that says like I love what she did in this documentary , because I think it's so necessary for us to realize that it is quite a broad cross section of humanity that did that , and there was a lot of different motivations and some of them were really nefarious and others were people caught up in a mass hysteria event and others were just people just trying to be a part of community or just fully delusional . But we nearly lost our democracy Absolutely .
KristianOh yeah .
OzzieFor the first time we didn't have a peaceful transition of power and to me that is a grave offense and I feel like it's shocking how few people really understand the gravity of what that effort was and who the people who were . Steve Bennett talked about it ahead of time . He said if he's winning he's going to say , call it over , and if he's losing he's going to say they were cheated and no matter what , we're going to try to create chaos because he's not leaving .
OzzieLike he's quoted as saying that beforehand , because he was talking about the plans ahead of time with Trump . They lost 64 cases in court . We did . They didn't even say fraud was committed because they knew they couldn't use that argument , because in court you can't just say shit like you can to the media .
KristianAnd yet , despite all of the body of evidence that has come out and continues to come out , they're spanking .
OzzieDespite the fact that the people went to jail for him and came back out , and many of the people on the documentary still believe in the big lie , because it is easier to fool a man than to convince him that he's been fooled . Our ego just becomes too much of a role .
KristianWell , and our identities get wrapped up around a particular belief system . And to admit to oneself that maybe this path that I went down turns out to be false is a psychic shock to many people that they just simply can't bear because it means abdicating .
OzzieYou're going to hear a jail ? Yeah , you can have those quiet moments where you're like yo , what ?
Kristianthe , if anything , that empowers them , because now they fail . Alma Mater , I suffered , I sacrificed for my cause , so that in fact actually invigorates them . But I think to your question , this speaks to just how fragmented and siloed we are in terms of how we consume news , because while you and I are more informed about Humble brag .
KristianYou know all of the okay . We obviously expose ourselves to a network of news and a set of information that others simply don't , or is presented to them in a negative light , or either glossed over or just presented in the context of oh , look at what this site believes and how stupid they are , or they , you know they've been led down this rabbit hole , but in fact we're the ones who have the truth . And you know , I mean , at the end of the cable news is has veered toward this kind of kind of sensationalist personality , fear driven type of , I guess , infotainment , and there's no attempt really to have a conversation , to have a debate , to present the other side .
OzzieI remember Hannity and Combs .
KristianYeah , I mean that was . Are you looking back on that ? I mean , that was almost on her , Although I will say this there's that one woman , Jessica , on the five for Fox News .
Exploring Evolution, Religion, and Human Society
OzzieShe's always torturing those dudes .
KristianHowever , I am starting to see evidence of greater conversation . We're not fully there yet , but , for example , like Pierce Morgan , are you like oh ? It's an interesting person .
OzzieI understand for Pierce Morgan . It's not that I stand for him .
KristianBut I , but I at least , I appreciate that he is actually trying to bring on guests that he , you know , doesn't agree with .
OzzieYeah .
KristianAnd he gives them a platform to speak and he does engage them . Not I'm just going to talk all over you , but it actually has a back and forth , whereas maybe in some other cable news shows it's really just hey , we're going to bring on this other person , but we're really just bringing on to just kind of part of my language , just show them you know , and not allow them to really respond or to defend themselves or to maybe even offer a counterpoint that then the interviewer has to kind of defend . Right , it's always no , we're going to bring you on but we're going to do everything possible to make you look the fool . So interesting points here . Let's move into how these connect . What are the connections here between these two topics ? Again , we could do .
OzzieWell , sum up your position or your thesis on the Naledes .
KristianSure , so to me . This is my why it matters for the Naledes . It suggests a much longer historical process of competing human evolution . I think there's . The Naledes is just one discovery , but I know first . I feel almost certain that there are other branches that exhibited interesting behaviors that we've yet to discover , because the past , unfortunately , is limited to what our cryologists are able to find . And I think you know , every year it's like they discover something brand new that rewrites our human evolutionary history . So I'm excited for that . I think there's so much more we don't even know what's the significance of that .
OzzieWhy does it matter that it's 250 to 337,000 years ?
KristianBecause I think it's a tantalizing indicator that our society , societal constructs are indeed temporary and the need for reinvention is not only necessary but very much possible , because it , these older groups , proved to us that there were civilizations . I'm going a little too far here yeah civilizations A little too much , but there were ways of living that may have been better or may have been worse , but we're different .
OzzieWorse , they were worse . I don't want to live in a cave .
KristianOkay , but as an aliety . That's all you knew and you made the best of it .
OzzieAnd at that point .
Kristianyou evolved to manage and you know handle those kinds of environmental situations . I mean , you know , are we really that much superior ?
OzzieYes , In certain ways right .
KristianYes , of course , All right , even with the in the light of wars and the diseases and environmental destruction we're . We're about to unleash upon ourselves the economic constraints and pressures and stresses that we have to experience . I mean our , our lives truly that much less stressful than say well that's not the aliety experience .
OzzieWe don't know about the stresses . I can tell you that I'm not worried about a lion eating me . That's a . That's a pretty cool stress I don't have to worry about , like oh shoot , I hope I buried my car accident .
KristianYou can have it and be in a plane crash . You can consume a product that poisons you slowly over time .
OzzieI can fly in a plane . How about that ?
KristianOr about the spestos that's porous to descending upon us .
OzzieThat's going to be a bad choice . That's not necessary In like five years . Okay , what happened to 20 years ? And that was five years .
KristianThis timeline is . I mean the longer we spend here . I'm not , I'm saying I don't know , I don't know .
OzzieBut no , I think okay .
KristianThe strongest point is that I'm just . I just think it just opens the door to all kinds of possibilities that we can imagine for ourselves or any group can imagine for itself , and I think I just hope that . I think the key takeaway for me here is , whatever constructs we've built up for ourselves , all the pros and all the cons , that we can continue pushing ourselves forward , hopefully in a way that will continue to maximize the pros , minimize the con .
OzzieI think it's the idea that if they had a belief that it was necessary to bury their loved no-transcript , narrowly scooped through this large crevasse you know that was steep and then they buried them , they gave them a tool to hold on to . You think that there's something that they believe about an afterlife , or at least a practice of love , and I think it's one of those . So it's the practice of loving somebody that was very close to you , or a belief in an afterlife , or both . And if it's a belief in an afterlife and something that primitive , and if we come to find that each you know , homo erectus maybe had a practice like that , if we find out the neanderthals , practice like that the genosophans had a practice like that , then it suggests maybe humanity , the thing that binds us together , isn't tools , isn't communication , but in a belief in a higher power of some sort .
OzzieAnd that's weird to me because I'm agnostic , you know . So I'm hearing that argument going like if that was always there , then maybe that was God putting into it like , hey , just know that there's something beyond you . Think about me , and that's why every generation of , or every genus know everything speaks within our genius . How do you say it ? Sapiens erectus , all that . That's why they all have these religious practices . That would be fascinating to me if to find that out .
KristianOr it's this kind of deep rooted instinct or curiosity , because anthropologists have studied this phenomenon of well . Why is it well ? What sparks religiosity or disbelief in the higher power ? And some theories suggest that it's because when you dream , sometimes you dream about the ceased one you know past loved ones and so you know when you're a Naledi , and they see in their dreams their loved ones that have passed , suddenly materials before them and speaking and having a scene and reading , or whatever it is that they dream about , it seems to suggest they to them .
KristianIt's almost like supernatural , right ? So ?
Ozzieyou think it's based on dream . That is an interesting theory yeah , yeah . Oh , that's wild .
KristianIt's a really interesting , fascinating theory , and I wish I remember who originally pioneered it .
OzziePretend it's yours .
KristianPointed , but to me like yeah , because even animals dream they've had proven that . And so to them like , oh my god , like suddenly I'm seeing this person that was I know has passed , and now I'm seeing them in my mind .
OzzieHave you read Sapiens ? Okay , remember his argument for why religiosity was created is basically mythmaking , was a way to corral humanity .
KristianThe story right , the narrative . It's just a way to galvanize people .
OzzieIt's not even you don't think you can put an aphorius undertone to it . It's just like how do you compel masses of individuals towards certain goals ? Yeah , one of the ways is through mythmaking .
KristianAnd then they have that collective belief which is what we see with insurrectionists to there is the myth being made of Trump and what that means , and they'll say they're not in the cold , but then they have like paraphernalia , a tool of motivation , it's a tool of control , but I think , but I think that that's a good , important point , but I think those are corruptions and perversions of something more smaller scale , of just us , you know , are some , something where our brains seems , you know , wants to suggest this kind of afterlife , the supernatural realm , this , this more than well , isn't it ?
Ozzieby an art of art , our preternatural desire for survival . Like we're survivalists at the ultimate . So how do you ? How do you continue surviving ? You believe that your life goes on even after your body does not ? It's just the logical end point of a species that conceive of its end and also does not want to accept it .
KristianIt's also a coping mechanism , because when you see loved ones around , you pass yeah it's the thought of wow , someday I'm going to cease to exist is really . I mean , it's a difficult thing to wrap your head around .
OzzieYeah except .
KristianAnd so , oh , there's something more beyond that gives you a little bit of peace in that . Well , everything I've done in my lifetime , all the connections and all the relationships I forge , and all the memories and meanings that I've I shared , it's not just going to disappear . It has a place , it's going to continue on . My legacy is pervert , preserve , not only preserved , but it's going to legacy continue to , you know , manifest in other realms or other , you know , I don't know experiential pathways . Okay , let's go . I do want to transition to how they connect .
KristianSo to me it's really just a busting of stereotypes because , you know , the Naledi strengthens the idea that complex emotion and behavior are not the sole purview of homo sapiens that actually exist in earlier versions of our evolutionary species , but also in animals , and more we learn about animal behavior and they're the fact that they have languages and they can use tools and they exhibit complex emotion .
KristianIt's kind of deepening our you know , we share more with animals than there may be differences and then also deepens our understanding of ideas and events that we often simplify
Understanding the Insurrectionist Community
Kristianor ignore .
KristianIn the case of the insurrectionist next door , which is , you know , these are people who have been coerced , have been manipulated , have been used as tools , who have been brought to a moment of despair . So the question , rather , should be not so much who are these idiots , why they do what they do , but rather what are the conditions that inspire them to do what they did ? Who are the players behind them ? What is it about their lives that made them feel so disconnected or so disenchanted or so powerless that they have to embrace this radical idea of election lie ? And then again , the partial truths right that you know clearly most people are not fully in control of their lives . They don't have , you know , pull all the relievers of power , and so there is a genuine disenchantment that conspiracy theories feed off of but then are coopted by those in power who want to kind of use and manipulate these kind of feelings for their own personal ends and authoritarian aims . So that's kind of the connections I kind of draw from the both I hear that .
OzzieYeah , that's well thought out . I was thinking about the connection being that the willingness to sacrifice for community members or loved ones . I don't want to romanticize the insurrectionists too much , I'm just an empathetic sucker . I guess you know when that one country guy who spent time in jail was at the bar and he's singing that song , the lost cause , and you just , all of his heart is in it .
KristianThat was a great scene . Yeah , that was a fantastic . That really speaks to how strongly they feel about .
OzzieWell , he in particular . That's his story about like feeling like a loser , but not like society has put him in a position of what a loser is . Like he said I've dropped out in ninth grade but I'm not stupid . I know how to build things .
KristianI built this truck , you know he has and that's legit . Yeah , absolutely , he's a man of his hands . Yeah .
OzzieYeah , he's got pride in a lot of that stuff , it's just and as he should , as he should . So , anyway , I don't want to romanticize these people , because I still think that there's a part of me that's furious that they haven't learned a lesson , because they're doubling down but maybe they're going to end up being correct and where the fools no .
OzzieThe preponderance of evidence is overwhelming , Like this is . This is not always a last second finish , it's clear , but they love being a part of the community . You know they felt alienated for so long , all of them that seem to be universality amongst them and to finally have something that they , you know , I think that's a really powerful human .
KristianAbsolutely , yeah , yeah , it's like one of our community through that .
OzzieYeah , and the way you sacrifice for community and you go to jail and you come back but you still want to belong to it . You know you , you did it for your community . Tattoo proud boys on your forehead . You go down into a weird cave that's difficult to get to and you bury the people that you love in a way that you're willing to make that sacrifice for . So that's what .
KristianI saw as a connecting point . No , I love that .
OzzieAnd then I also wanted to tie it in with that . Remember that . Fourth , I want to be pedantic for a second . Remember that Fahrenheit 451 quote where he says I'd rather walk in darkness with my brothers than to end the light alone . Like for a lot of the people who cannot stand the fact that they may have been fooled and they're doubling down on their Trump support or idea of the stolen election , what if I ? He said , what am I going to do ? Become a liberal ?
Ozzienow he's still watching OAN afterwards after eight months of jail because he's like I made a batch of choices in terms of going in there , but that doesn't mean I don't believe . What I believe and my belief system creates a community for me .
KristianThat I otherwise wouldn't have .
OzzieI just meet my cats or whatever . Maybe I really think people need to watch this . It's , it's really necessary . I wish there were more opportunities for the right to look at the left . The left is constantly creating a . Let's humanize the person that we have faults with so that we can understand them better , so that we can better serve them , so we disagree with that .
KristianWhere's the ?
Ozzieright doing that . I'm the left when ? Who's the Nancy Pelosi's daughter ? I don't remember her real name , Alexandra .
KristianAlexandra .
OzzieSorry . Where's Alex Alexander Pelosi from the right who's legitimately trying to hear people that they fundamentally disagree ? The people had songs saying fuck Nancy Pelosi . Other people were talking about like in their blogs how they want to attack her and she's going there as her daughter to try to make peace with them or send an olive branch . I wish we had more of that from both sides , but I never see that , all from the right to the left . Tell me of a counter . I'd love to be wrong .
KristianThat's an interesting point To me . I feel the left .
OzzieMaybe Sean Hannity talking to Gavin Newsom .
KristianI think so , or maybe that's the closest we can come . Hannity's shifting his tone a bit . Maybe again Piers Morgan shifting his tone , maybe a bit , but I think the Israel Palestine stuff right .
KristianI will say that the reason the right is probably has made Hypothetically exhibit less of that , is because the left so Will sifferously and persistently malign them for so long . Because I'll say , if you roll back the time five , four or five years , all you ever heard from the left , hold on , all you ever heard from the left is right to fascist bushes at fascist this , that you know that kind of like , that kind of work , that hyperperberately and well bush started a war in a country that had nothing to do with it .
KristianI don't want to know like .
OzzieWhy did we attack poor sleep , little bush ? He deserved all the vitriol .
KristianThat he got really . You know he wasn't openly this place in Iraq .
OzzieHe's hundreds of thousands of them dead , thousands of Americans that warrant . I mean so like he's not sympathetic at all to me .
KristianSimilarly sure , but hold on . He wasn't openly Talking about becoming addicted , or on day one right like he's . He never used that kind of language like he as as as as horrific things , as he did policy wise , he operated under the assumption that he was doing good .
OzzieI think we were too hard on Mitt Romney . He was not as .
KristianI think this that does bring up a good conversation for another episode , but I think we need more of what Alexander policy has done from both sides and you know we definitely .
KristianIt's time to Again . I'm worried about that , the continuation of this unchecked partisan politics . I'm worried about deepening social divisions . I don't want it to end up in a violent collapse because , at the end of the day , both sides lose . Both sides are gonna be worse off for it . It's gonna affect everyone and the only people who's gonna benefit are the , the new crop of leaders that will emerge to take advantage of our divisions For their own gain , and in the end , we're just gonna be left with you sound like that new Julia Roberts Mahershala Ali movie .
OzzieHmm , have you seen it ? No , I have not it's like at the end of the world or something like that .
KristianOh , check it out , it's on Netflix , though . Three closing words , three words to pull everything together here . One of mine is , I think , wonder what's ?
Ozziewhat's the wonder about ?
KristianWonder . Obviously the naledi . In terms of what you know , they were capable of dating back 335,000 years , to me wondering that's insurrectionist next door . What is it that drives these people to believe what they did ? And no , actually , no , I take that back Probably wonders . It doesn't really connect both . Please take over here .
OzzieI got , I got to that , come jump out , and I talked about them already love and sacrifice .
KristianThey love and sacrifice .
OzzieI like direction . Is it there I ?
Kristianwould put that there right . I love sacrifice community .
OzzieYeah , I think these are great forces .
KristianI think there's community in both sides . I think you're right . I think the power to want to , the temptation to feel that sense of community is so powerful that it will Make you believe in things that are completely outrageous . And in the case of the naledi , obviously you know they did the they , as you said , they put themselves through this ordeal of burying their dad because that's what they felt in part . They're community needed to elevate it to this kind of , to kind of honor the lives of those that they Once lived with .
OzzieSo all right , so .
KristianExcellent . Any final thoughts ?
OzzieNo , voltaire said .
OzzieOh boy , all right , I'll get a man to believe in absurdities and you can get him to commit atrocities , and there were atrocities committed on January 6th . I want to be clear about that . But I also want to just say that those people are complex and Whatever empathy you can lend to them and humanity , I think we'll take America in a better Direction , because , after all , we are all of the same genus and we've had certain practices that they hundreds of thousands of years , and those things that bind us are so much greater than those that divide us . So I want us to heal from this . I don't think we're doing that , but hopefully Fast enough because a lot of people still need to be prosecuted . Like he's gonna be 148 million dollars .
KristianBut I'm hoping for .
OzzieAlexander Pelosi type movements , because we do all belong to the same genus .
The Role of Social Media
KristianYeah , I think more conversation needs to be had and I think we need to revisit how we present information is currently Working against us . I think social media is broken . I think a cable news shows are poison operating under Not the best , not the best , not for the best , intentions of , like you said , for being a healer to even better understand ourselves . All right listeners . Thank you for joining us . I'll , ozzy . I hope there's more of this .
OzzieI let me close with this Christian I've missed you so much and this has been really lovely . I've been looking forward to this conversation , because it's just an interesting fellow that I've always enjoyed talking to , so getting to Be here with you today , it's been something I've been longing for for a while , and it's actually underwhelming . I thought it was gonna be better , so I'm pretty disappointed . I need you to pick your game up for next time . All right , buddy ? No , I love you . I'm so glad to be here , beautiful .
KristianWe say this I miss the moths and the creepy car . That's pretty cool . All right , everyone .